RightCyberUp HOME search comment
October 2002
RightCyberUp readers send some truly thoughtful comments: notes of appreciation, stories of how the site has been useful, suggestions, offers to help, etc. Most are sent private replies.
However, a number of messages to RightCyberUp have been unanswerable because their writers left inadequate contact info. In some cases this has been accidental. But other messages are sent by people (often ICC members) who don't want to enter a dialogue, but just to express their own toxic comment, and leave it anonymously on the virtual doorstep. They're "drive-by" messages. Some messages are even sent from invalid email addresses, so that replies get written, only to bounce back unseen.
Since other readers might have similar questions, this page will reply publicly to several of these letters from the abyss.
December 13, 2001 11:15 AM EST
THANK YOU FOR THE INFORMATION, IS THIS BUILD BY MAN, IT WILL BE DESTROYED IN THE NEXT TIMES, IS THIS FROM GOD, BE CAREFULL YOU FIGHT AGAINST GOD. ACTS 5
- Sebastian
Sebastian, we've all heard ICC leaders/members invoke the words in Acts 5 many times and suggest that, biblically, the ICC's critics should just keep quiet and let God take care of things. Really, this is a mis-use of Acts 5.
In Acts 5, a wise Pharisee named Gamaliel persuaded the Sanhedrin not to have the apostles killed, saying "if their purpose or activity is of human origin, it will fail. But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God." (Acts 5: 38-39) Gamaliel was right to defend the apostles, since they were breaking no laws or rules, and harming no one. In modern day situation where laws or rules or being broken, or where people are being harmed, Gamaliel's words would not apply.
Acts 5 does not support being silent to abuse or wrong teachings. Speaking out against such things is not "fighting against God." This fallacy as it is used by the ICC could be called a "thought-terminating cliche."
December 18, 2001 12:51 AM EST
Are you aware that ICOC has purchased a small college campus in San Dimas, California? It was once a very conservative Bible college and resembles a military base more than a campus. A former student of mine tried to ask the ICOC people there some questions and was turned away by an armed guard.
- unknown
Sorry, no more information is known about this. People who know more are welcome to write.
February 2, 2002 7:43 PM EST
Most of the information [on RightCyberUp] is accurate. However, you should present some good things about the church because there are several. But overall it's true.
- unknown
This is a great suggestion. In fact, it led to a RightCyberUp article Ten Good Things about the ICC posted early in 2002.
April 22, 2002 5:46 P.M.. EST
I personally know Kip McKean and everything that is written about him is not true. In fact, he is the opposite. He is what the world need to imitate. He is a godly man and I just wish that you writers would leave him a lone. Don't you have anything better to do than to manipulate his life? Get a life of your own, so that you can feel better about yourself. Thanks.
- unknown
Presumably, you must mean that anything written about Kip McKean by an ICC critic is untrue -- specifically the RightCyberUp comparison of McKean to the traits of a cult leader. (Or do you mean that everything written about McKean by the ICC is also untrue?)
RightCyberUp's article on Kip McKean provided testimony from four former movement leaders who knew him personally -- three who led beneath him. Please understand that McKean has had a hugely important role in the ICC movement and it's not a matter of just "picking on Kip." McKean as well as the ICC's top leaders have claimed that Kip was God's man, leading "God's modern-day movement." Such a person should be the subject of great scrutiny.
Incidentally, on the subject of ICC founder Kip McKean, it will be interesting to see what happens by the one-year anniversary of McKean's November 2001 sabbatical from ICC leadership.
The word "sabbatical" has Hebrew origins, and the idea is related to Old Testament concepts like the Sabbath day's rest (Exodus 20:11) or the sabbath year setting aside land to be free of crops every seventh year (Leviticus 25: 2-8). In addition, the precedent for sabbaticals in the academic world is one year away from regular duties.
The result? One can make a case that McKean's sabbatical "expires" on November 11, 2002. It will be interesting to see if the ICC organization ends McKean's sabbatical or changes his leadership role.
April 25, 2002 2:38 a.m. EST
I do not understand where you stand? Are you for GOD or the World?
- unknown
If you're asking for an absolute choice between the perfect God or the imperfect "world," I'll take God behind door #1, thanks!
But let's be glad that there is both a God and a world! We can't always simply polarize the two. Although the Bible at times draws a sharp polarity between God and the world (e.g. I John 2: 15-17), here are a few things to consider, biblically:
Finally, please know that a person can speak out against problems in the ICC and still be for God.
May 31, 2002 6:40 PM EST, from an unknown ICC disciple of 4 months:
It amazes me how twisted your website is. If you're so rightous then why don't you come up for a better idea for a church.
First of all, it's not about righteousness (although biblically any righteousness we have is not our own -- Philippians 3:9).
Secondly, it's not RightCyberUp's duty to come up with a better idea for a church. There are hundreds of kinds of churches one can already attend, and there seems to be little need to start another church (not that it's wrong to do so).
I have read all of your "criticisms" and laughed at most of them. Your idea of mind control is rediculous and I don't really care what expert you consult.
It's disappointing you weren't more specific.
NO ONE tells me how much money to give and how often. I try to give my 10% plus HOPE and Special.
Coincidentally -- the ICC's typical miniumum expectation is exactly that: 10% (gross) weekly contribution, plus HOPE and Special contribution! If you are you saying you independently decided to do each of these things, then we'll have to take you at your word.
I have seen first hand how that money benefits MY community.
Aside from HOPE, only a small percentage of ICC regular contributions typically go to benevolence. So it's unclear what benefits to the community you might be speaking of.
NO ONE tells me who I can socialize with and who I can't. NO ONE tells me who I can date and who I can't. NO ONE tells me how long I can be gone for vacation. You obviously are a bitter former member of the church. If these things were happening in your church then you had bad leaders because I can PROMISE you that none of the things that you say occur do not in fact occur in my church.
It's great if you're not experiencing the ICC's reportedly manipulative side -- who would wish that on anyone? But remember that one person's experience (even yours) does not invalidate another's. Also, since you did not identify yourself, we'll never know where you are from -- or have any way of verifying whether these things happen in your congregation.
If you want to criticize a church for "abuses", then why don't you look at the Catholic Church. It's doctrine is entirely unbiblical. Where in the Bible does it say to worship a "pope"? Where in the Bible does it say to worship the mother Mary? Where in the Bible does it say that priests can't be married. Everything I have learned has been in black and white straight from the Bible. You don't agree? Fine. This, however, does not make us a cult. If you want to look at Church abuses then again look at the Catholic church. I pity all of the poor parents of children who were molested by priests. I also pity all of the people who give money every week so that the Church can settle lawsuits.
If the Catholic Church is worthy of criticism, would it mean that the ICC is not? No, it is irrelevant to the ICC.
Call me a cult member or anything else you would like. My life has never been ANYTHING but wonderful since I joined the church. The same goes for my wife. Our friends who are not church members have read your criticisms and were worried about our well being in this church. It's funny at the same time they are worried that they tell us that they have never seen my wife and I so happy to be together and with other people. They have seen the drastic changes for the better in our lives and often mention this to us. So am I cult member? I don't think so but what I do know is that I will have no part of any other church. In closing I just want to let you know that I have been a desciple for 4 months now and the changes in my life have been incredible. Why don't you put that on your website?
Consider it done!
Finally, I do want to thank for the addition of the 10 good things about our church. That was fair of you. Is our church perfect? No. Only Jesus was perfect. However, we do strive hard to live our lives the way Jesus wants us to. How can you argue against that?
This cliche "Is the ICC perfect... no, only Jesus was perfect" is a common one coming from ICC leadership. Really it's a straw-man argument -- a poor imitation of a critic's argument, set up only to be torn down. I have never heard any ICC critic say that "since the ICC is imperfect I will speak out against it." Rather, most critics say that the ICC is not only imperfect, but systematically flawed.
Is the ICC systematically flawed? A question worth considering...
July 25, 2002 1:18 PM EST
You never mentioned the Biblical aspects of our lives. Do you have a website against the Amish too?
- unknown
Will RightCyberUp create a site about the Amish? No.
Unfortunately, the only contact I've had with the Amish was in a Canadian hernia clinic in 1994. I was there recovering from surgery for three days, and so was an Amish man and his toddler son. They never tried to convert me. They also didn't much hang around the pool table where I spent most of my time (gotta hand it to those Canadians -- they know how to make a hernia clinic. I'm not joking that this place had an outdoor putting green!).
So I really don't have enough knowlege of the Amish to write a Website... Oh, and I did see that Harrison Ford movie where he falls in love with an Amish Kelly McGillis (Witness). And that other movie where Woody Harrelson takes some Amish guy on a bowling tour. But still not enough material for a Web site.
P.S. After writing all of this, I realized the Amish don't even read Web sites.
July 25, 2002 1:21 PM EST
Why can't you be contacted? What are you afraid of?
- unknown
Sorry that you didn't find the contact info -- it's right here on the site. You can also submit general feedback here or from the "comment" link on most pages.
Why isn't there contact info on every page? For one thing, it's better for everyone if people who write actually read the site first. Also, if RightCyberUp gets too much email there will be less time to produce content that helps people.
August 13, 2002 5:02 PM EST
Hello,
I would like to better understand why you would write such horrible things. I find that, after being a disciple for 5 1/2 years, it hasn't always been easy, but i don't regret my decision at all. I'm not writing to bash this website or say mean things about all of the things you've written, but i feel that the very thing you accuse the church of, you in turn do the same with all of this misleading information. I suppose you were hurt in some horrible way at some point in your previous spiritual lives, and i honestly wish it had never been so - maybe it would prevent you from being so bitter. While i don't find the material on this site valuable, i would like to understand personally why you do. I say this in order to strengthen my own personal convictions and not be naive.While you may not think it true, i live and walk the way i do not for some leader i've never met before, but because of what i read in my bible and know to be true through seeing it with my own eyes.
Thanks
- unkown
Thanks for writing (I think!). I need to correct a couple of your assumptions:
If you want to read my story, you can find it here. I would encourage you to consider the possibility that these things have been written because they are true, with the best of motives -- to help other people.
I also hope everyone realizes that ICC members are not the subject of RightCyberUp's criticism at all, but rather the ICC system and the leaders who created and maintain it. There's enough "blaming the victim" in this world without blaming ICC members if they're victimized. (Note that the ICC "blames the victim" with its ex-members -- saying the reason people leave the ICC is that they're bitter or couldn't forgive after being wronged.)
Other than that, if you want to communicate what you find misleading about the site, you'll need to be specific. Demonstrate something is untrue and it will be removed from the site. (Note: just because something hasn't happened to you, doesn't make it untrue.)
September 25, 2002 8:47 PM EST from Barbara
Who are you? Is your intention to draw people to the 'truth' with this 'information'? Were you a member of this church, and for how long?
Barbara, it's my experience that many ICC current members prefer to question the questioner (in this case, me) rather than acknowledge the questions (created by this site). I guess one reason is that ICC leaders teach members to question the motives/heart/credentials of anyone who would criticize them. Again, I've already answered your three questions in the About the Author blurb here.
I understand that you might have some 'issues' w/members or how things are done. But to spread your bitterness like this on a website, giving it a 'professional look' is very sad. I'm sad for you that you feel you need to do this instead of just taking it to God. Did Jesus go around talking like this about anybody?
Yes, Jesus did. About the Pharisees.
The truth is out there. I just pray we all find it in the end.
Indeed.
sincerely,
Dave
Anderson
dave@rightcyberup.org
Copyright © 2002 Dave Anderson.
